Sam Harris: I completely agree that avoidance is
almost the whole story when it comes to self-defense. I also agree that
it is very easy to lose sight of this truth, because people don’t really
train for avoidance or de-escalation. Rory talks about this a lot in
his work. And there is a very unhappy valley between knowing nothing
about self-defense and knowing a lot, where the average martial artist
is probably more likely to get into a violent altercation than he
otherwise would have been. His ego has become bound up in being someone
who can handle violence and who doesn’t have to take shit from anyone,
and his training has probably given him some unrealistic ideas about his
own competence. However, granting that a person can be anywhere from
really foolish to impeccable on this front, there is still a subset of
cases where violence is simply unavoidable. Hence the importance of this
conversation.
Steve, how do things change if a person is attempting to rob me? I haven’t been assaulted—but the other person is implicitly threatening me with the prospect of violence by saying that if I comply with his instructions, I won’t get hurt.
Steven Levine: If you’re being robbed, you can just kill the other person.
Sam Harris: Are you kidding?
Steven Levine: If you’re being robbed, you can take out your gun and shoot the person dead, and no one will prosecute you.
Sam Harris: There’s no requirement to drop your wallet and run, in the hopes of avoiding violence?
Steven Levine: None at all.
Sam Harris: Huh…
Steven Levine: The difference is, it’s clear: You are the victim of a crime. And people know that robberies often result in death.
Sam Harris: But are you assuming that the other person is armed?
Steven Levine: I don’t care if he’s just got his finger under his shirt.
Sam Harris: That is just… bizarre…. Let’s assume I can safely retreat, but I happen to be worried about other people in the area. Can I defend these people as I would myself?
Steven Levine: The defense of others is basically just an extension of your own right to self-defense, meaning that these people had better be in imminent danger of harm.
Sam Harris: So, I’m in a liquor store, and a man walks in and pulls out a gun and tells everyone to get down on the floor. As it happens, I’m standing near the door and can just run away. But I also have a gun—let’s leave aside the fact that we’re in California, and I shouldn’t have a gun on me in the first place. Can I legally shoot this person in the back of the head?
Steven Levine: Yes. Once somebody is engaged in felonious conduct, you can do whatever you do to stop him.
Sam Harris: I just find this astonishing—given the legal ambiguities that loom everywhere else. Threats of violence, or even an actual assault, seem open to endless caviling, but someone saying “Give me your wallet” magically clarifies everything and opens the door to lethal force.
Steven Levine: No one likes a robber, period. A tougher question is, let’s say you’re walking down the street and you come upon a fight: One guy is pummeling another guy to the point where people are shouting, “Stop, stop, you’re going to kill him.” You might decide to take out your gun and shoot him just to save the other person’s life. But I’m not sure it’s going to go well for you in court.
Sam Harris: What is the difference in that case? Is it that I don’t know how the fight started? Perhaps the person being beaten was the initial aggressor, or had already used a weapon.
Steven Levine: Right—you don’t know anything. That’s the problem. It’s better to try and break it up, as opposed to killing somebody. Again, most scenarios of this kind don’t have easy answers. But robbery is clear-cut.
Sam Harris: What if I am confronted by multiple attackers? Is the case for lethal force equally clear-cut?
Steven Levine: Well, it’s a good fact in your favor. But I’d still need to know more about what they were doing. If they’re robbing you, again, it’s clear.
Sam Harris: What if they’re physically attacking me?
Steven Levine: If you’re actually in a fight, and you’re scared, and you think you’re about to suffer great bodily injury, then you have the right to defend yourself with deadly force. But the major criteria are: Did they start the fight? Is the fight actually happening? I mean, we have all seen the movies where the bad guys pick on the person who they think is the easy mark, and to the audience’s delight, he kicks all their asses. Well, in real life, if you are being attacked, you can kick ass, but if you pull out a gun and start shooting, you will have problems explaining the reasonableness of your conduct. If you pull out a knife and stab three guys to death, that also presents problems.
- Read the whole interview here with Steven Graff Levine, Rory Miller and Matt Thornton on Sam Harris' blog.
Highly recommend reading Rory Miller's fascinating book Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence
Steve, how do things change if a person is attempting to rob me? I haven’t been assaulted—but the other person is implicitly threatening me with the prospect of violence by saying that if I comply with his instructions, I won’t get hurt.
Steven Levine: If you’re being robbed, you can just kill the other person.
Sam Harris: Are you kidding?
Steven Levine: If you’re being robbed, you can take out your gun and shoot the person dead, and no one will prosecute you.
Sam Harris: There’s no requirement to drop your wallet and run, in the hopes of avoiding violence?
Steven Levine: None at all.
Sam Harris: Huh…
Steven Levine: The difference is, it’s clear: You are the victim of a crime. And people know that robberies often result in death.
Sam Harris: But are you assuming that the other person is armed?
Steven Levine: I don’t care if he’s just got his finger under his shirt.
Sam Harris: That is just… bizarre…. Let’s assume I can safely retreat, but I happen to be worried about other people in the area. Can I defend these people as I would myself?
Steven Levine: The defense of others is basically just an extension of your own right to self-defense, meaning that these people had better be in imminent danger of harm.
Sam Harris: So, I’m in a liquor store, and a man walks in and pulls out a gun and tells everyone to get down on the floor. As it happens, I’m standing near the door and can just run away. But I also have a gun—let’s leave aside the fact that we’re in California, and I shouldn’t have a gun on me in the first place. Can I legally shoot this person in the back of the head?
Steven Levine: Yes. Once somebody is engaged in felonious conduct, you can do whatever you do to stop him.
Sam Harris: I just find this astonishing—given the legal ambiguities that loom everywhere else. Threats of violence, or even an actual assault, seem open to endless caviling, but someone saying “Give me your wallet” magically clarifies everything and opens the door to lethal force.
Steven Levine: No one likes a robber, period. A tougher question is, let’s say you’re walking down the street and you come upon a fight: One guy is pummeling another guy to the point where people are shouting, “Stop, stop, you’re going to kill him.” You might decide to take out your gun and shoot him just to save the other person’s life. But I’m not sure it’s going to go well for you in court.
Sam Harris: What is the difference in that case? Is it that I don’t know how the fight started? Perhaps the person being beaten was the initial aggressor, or had already used a weapon.
Steven Levine: Right—you don’t know anything. That’s the problem. It’s better to try and break it up, as opposed to killing somebody. Again, most scenarios of this kind don’t have easy answers. But robbery is clear-cut.
Sam Harris: What if I am confronted by multiple attackers? Is the case for lethal force equally clear-cut?
Steven Levine: Well, it’s a good fact in your favor. But I’d still need to know more about what they were doing. If they’re robbing you, again, it’s clear.
Sam Harris: What if they’re physically attacking me?
Steven Levine: If you’re actually in a fight, and you’re scared, and you think you’re about to suffer great bodily injury, then you have the right to defend yourself with deadly force. But the major criteria are: Did they start the fight? Is the fight actually happening? I mean, we have all seen the movies where the bad guys pick on the person who they think is the easy mark, and to the audience’s delight, he kicks all their asses. Well, in real life, if you are being attacked, you can kick ass, but if you pull out a gun and start shooting, you will have problems explaining the reasonableness of your conduct. If you pull out a knife and stab three guys to death, that also presents problems.
- Read the whole interview here with Steven Graff Levine, Rory Miller and Matt Thornton on Sam Harris' blog.
Highly recommend reading Rory Miller's fascinating book Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence
No comments:
Post a Comment